March 15, 2012 at 1:27 pm
GabyYYZ (3/15/2012)
...My boss, whose background is SAP and Oracle, loves asking the referential integrity questions,...
I'm just wondering if he's interested in learning this stuff since he's been missing it in the past 😀 (especially for the three letter swear word you mentioned)
March 15, 2012 at 1:43 pm
GSquared (3/15/2012)
Just tell the person you were actually talking about E. Codd's younger evil twin, who had the same ideas and theories, but is using them for world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.
Too late. They've run screaming lest I contaminate them.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 15, 2012 at 2:07 pm
GSquared (3/15/2012)
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Well, "shredding a recordset" to me means rendering it unreadable and unrecoverable so I would presumably have lost that job too. Maybe you could enlighten us: what does it mean?
I came across "shredded document" (or something like that - I'll recognise it if I see it again, but won't use it) used as a term for a clustered index on the nodes of an xml document for the first time ever just yesterday; quite a bizarre usage, I thought, given that "shredded" here means pretty much the opposite of its usual meaning.
"Shred" in this context means to pull out the data itself. Often in reference to an XML dataset being turned into rows and columns in tables and sub-tables, but it can also mean any other process that takes a whole dataset and shreds it into scraps of data for use. I.e., pulling scalar data out of datasets.
...
Edit: The only reason I know this is because I read about it in the 90s, when XML was first being proposed.
Yes, parsing and concatenating.
He didn't tell me the answer (I got the frowny face treatment), I googled at the time. I think it came from .net as I'm not a .net programmer.
I was in the early imaging efforts with various input data/file/format conversions, etc., to various database/files/formats all show up all neatly indexed for search/retrieve with their images.
We did massive parsing and concatenating and converting with 0 margin for error. Precision and data preservation were critical.
I would have thought of that as shredding, considering I'd take the useful parts of the paths or bits or whatever and dispose of the rest. We delivered on CDs, mostly, so needed to shave off unuseful data.
We never called it that, and I couldn't imagine it would harken back that far, but, yes, 90s. I left the industry in 98.
The guy interviewing me on shredding and other terms I did know, or know enuf to answer well ; ) was ... a bit of an ... "Ace" so it was fine, he didn't seem keen on working with me anyway. Best to move for whatever technicality.
If it's going to be about terms, give me a computer and I'll look it up. Same way on the "spout tsql for me" stuff. I spout the parts I'm sure of then say something like "and then I'd look up the syntax for using [insert sp or nearly-named-that sp] ..."
I always take a portfolio with me and when we talk db structure, I draw pictures. Because that's how I design. Pictures that include lists of fields included with keys and relationships. I can draw it, I can build it. I can't necessarily name it ; )
This job, I drew lots of pictures in the interview. They seemed to dig it. It's small tech company with a committment to team work. I like that. It's why I wanted to be back in small tech. It's also where I came from. I also enjoy being around a lot of smart people that aren't insecure about not knowing everything.
March 15, 2012 at 2:21 pm
GSquared (3/15/2012)
... world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.
*gasp*
It can be no coincidence that this topic is full of elite DBA's!
(for some strange reason I first read evil instead of elite)
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
March 15, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Koen Verbeeck (3/15/2012)
GSquared (3/15/2012)
... world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.*gasp*
It can be no coincidence that this topic is full of elite DBA's!
(for some strange reason I first read evil instead of elite)
"Full"??
I thought about as many of us were developers as were DBAs, judging by what I see people saying and what people appear to work on.
The misreading of "elite DBAs" as "evil DBAs" is of course excusable since "evil" is a much more everyday adjective than "elite" to associate with a DBA. 😀
ANyway, we can be sure that world conquest by a team of DBAs won't happen because elite developers like Jeff will get there first. 😎
Tom
March 15, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
Writing the first chapter for this new book, I named Codd. For some reason I thought his name was John Codd. I had a reviewer go absolutely BALLISTIC that I didn't know he was named Edgar 'Ted' Codd and that any book I was writing must be completely worthless so he stopped reviewing it. Cause after all, what's more important, having a decent idea of how to index a table or knowing Codd's first name?
I could have told you it wasn't John, but I'd have had to check wiki to see what it really was.
What the hell is this with tech editors? This is the 3rd case I've heard of now where a tech editor has gone all prima donna and walked out part way through. I thought it was supposed to be authors who acted like that.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 15, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Koen Verbeeck (3/15/2012)
It can be no coincidence that this topic is full of elite DBA's!
Damn, they're everywhere. How are honest developers supposed to get anything done I ask you.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm
jcrawf02 (3/15/2012)
Agree with disagreeing about calling it "poisonous", but don't quite agree with your wording Jack. Hate to say that a "wife can distract you", I see it more as the fact that when married, you have a responsibility (and privilege) to serve your partner, as Christ serves the church. If you don't have that responsibility, then you have more "free time" to focus on serving the church yourself.
I probably could have worded it better, but was trying to keep it as short as possible. I could still be typing an re-working that post. Biblical issues are close to my heart and nothing bothers me more than pulling a portion out of context. Sort of like loops in SQL.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
herladygeekedness (3/15/2012)
I have also lost jobs on terminology as I am also self-taught. I'm more a data analyst/programmer than DBA but around SQL since 6.5 and recordsets from same time period. I lost the job on "shredding a recordset". Came home and looked it up, I've been doing this FOR YEARS!! oh well... added to my "forgiveable weaknesses" list: "I do not always know the proper term since my education is mostly on the job ..."Along came a better job where they didn't care what I called things, they drilled me on how I built things, what I would do in Situation X or Y...
So perhaps the idea is to tailor the questions to the applicants' backgrounds. Ask me how I would do something and I will tell you. ask me how to use FunkyTermX and I might not know. I don't know CompSci 101 since I never had it.
But to not know what a primary key is and to be interviewing for any kind of database-intensive job ... ?? Scariest part is he maybe found a job as lead DBA !!!
I don't think I've lost jobs because of terminology, but there are always technical terms thrown out there that either I don't know or can't recall when on an interview. I couldn't remember Venn diagram one time and called it the circles that intersect.
I still can't give a great definition of the normal forms but I can tell a good design from a bad one and can usually tell you what NF a design is in, if any.:-P
My theory sucks because I'm self-taught as well. But I've always gotten the job done and had employers pleased with my work.
As a self-taught person, I ran into a fun issue. Writing the first chapter for this new book, I named Codd. For some reason I thought his name was John Codd. I had a reviewer go absolutely BALLISTIC that I didn't know he was named Edgar 'Ted' Codd and that any book I was writing must be completely worthless so he stopped reviewing it. Cause after all, what's more important, having a decent idea of how to index a table or knowing Codd's first name?
The best part was, none of the other reviewers caught it.
That's it! I'm not buying any more of your books and I'm burning the ones I have! 😀
Isn't there some Date guy too?
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
I have to disagree with calling what Paul wrote as "poisonous". I would say to call Paul anti-marriage is pulling that particular passage out of context. In the entire passage which even goes back in to chapter 6 (remember chapters and verses weren't in the original writings) Paul is addressing sexual immorality and the sexual nature of mankind and he specifically says that if a man can't keep his hands off he should get married. He also later says God has made some people to be married and others not to be. And I think verses 17-24 really sum up Paul's main point. Be content with the state you are in. His other point about staying single is that it allows you to remain focused on the things of God and having a wife can distract you from that. Christ made a similar point Luke 14 where he says if you don't hate your family you can't be his disciple. In context He's saying that you have to prioritize following Him first and then do the other things.Okay, that's my sermon for the month. I usually try to avoid these things because y'all are smarter than I am and can pick me apart.
Maybe you're right Jack. I've picked up some distinctly anti-Paul attitudes from my wife (she studied theology for three years at an Anglo-Catholic college, so she knows far more of this stuff than I do or ever will) which may be a bit OTT (but certainly he was a loggerheads with Peter and James over many issues, that's a matter of record). Perhaps he didn't mean that text in the way it was interpreted by celibatists for the next milennium and more - that wouldn't have been the first time some crackpots misinterpreted something, nor the last.
I think that Thomas Aquinas deserves a mention in this discussion since his influence was widespread and he argued that sex was never good unless it was only used as a tool to create children.
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
March 15, 2012 at 4:26 pm
GilaMonster (3/15/2012)
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
Writing the first chapter for this new book, I named Codd. For some reason I thought his name was John Codd. I had a reviewer go absolutely BALLISTIC that I didn't know he was named Edgar 'Ted' Codd and that any book I was writing must be completely worthless so he stopped reviewing it. Cause after all, what's more important, having a decent idea of how to index a table or knowing Codd's first name?I could have told you it wasn't John, but I'd have had to check wiki to see what it really was.
What the hell is this with tech editors? This is the 3rd case I've heard of now where a tech editor has gone all prima donna and walked out part way through. I thought it was supposed to be authors who acted like that.
Well, this was a reviewer, different than a tech editor (the process on this book would make you weep, well, it makes me weep). They can pitch a hissy and it reflects on the author, not the reviewer. Trust me. One bad review (this lovely individual) and one critical review, and I was rewriting 10 chapters worth of material from scratch. That's out of 10 reviews. And the glorious news, we're starting another review process right now. Joy! But this time, I have 20 chapters to rewrite when we're done. At which point, I may try pulling the prima donna routine & see how it works.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 15, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
GSquared (3/15/2012)
Just tell the person you were actually talking about E. Codd's younger evil twin, who had the same ideas and theories, but is using them for world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.Too late. They've run screaming lest I contaminate them.
Does John Codd have an assistant named Pinky?
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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March 15, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
Isn't there some Date guy too?
Nono, that was Data, from Star Trek... and he was a walking database, not a designer. That was Midnightian Soong. 🙂
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
March 15, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Evil Kraig F (3/15/2012)
Grant Fritchey (3/15/2012)
GSquared (3/15/2012)
Just tell the person you were actually talking about E. Codd's younger evil twin, who had the same ideas and theories, but is using them for world conquest through a secrect society of elite DBAs.Too late. They've run screaming lest I contaminate them.
Does John Codd have an assistant named Pinky?
Not sure, but I think he has a cousin named Cape who lives near me.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 15, 2012 at 9:06 pm
mtillman-921105 (3/15/2012)
L' Eomot Inversé (3/15/2012)
Jack Corbett (3/15/2012)
I have to disagree with calling what Paul wrote as "poisonous". I would say to call Paul anti-marriage is pulling that particular passage out of context. In the entire passage which even goes back in to chapter 6 (remember chapters and verses weren't in the original writings) Paul is addressing sexual immorality and the sexual nature of mankind and he specifically says that if a man can't keep his hands off he should get married. He also later says God has made some people to be married and others not to be. And I think verses 17-24 really sum up Paul's main point. Be content with the state you are in. His other point about staying single is that it allows you to remain focused on the things of God and having a wife can distract you from that. Christ made a similar point Luke 14 where he says if you don't hate your family you can't be his disciple. In context He's saying that you have to prioritize following Him first and then do the other things.Okay, that's my sermon for the month. I usually try to avoid these things because y'all are smarter than I am and can pick me apart.
Maybe you're right Jack. I've picked up some distinctly anti-Paul attitudes from my wife (she studied theology for three years at an Anglo-Catholic college, so she knows far more of this stuff than I do or ever will) which may be a bit OTT (but certainly he was a loggerheads with Peter and James over many issues, that's a matter of record). Perhaps he didn't mean that text in the way it was interpreted by celibatists for the next milennium and more - that wouldn't have been the first time some crackpots misinterpreted something, nor the last.
I think that Thomas Aquinas deserves a mention in this discussion since his influence was widespread and he argued that sex was never good unless it was only used as a tool to create children.
Well, Thomas' first writings about sex/marriage/procration are in his Scriptum Super Sententiis (aka Scriptum super libros Sententiarium) which was composed between 1253 and 1256; but the final banning of marriage for those in religious orders (and the unofficial but very thoroughly adhered to ban on ordination of any married person with a living spouse) had happened more than 100 years before that and was the culmination of a discussion that had gone on for well over a thousand years before that, so unless people had access to time machines to skip forwards a few hundred years and read his writings (or attend his lectures - the commentaries are in effect a write-up of the lectures he gave at Paris University in those years) it seems extremely unlikely that he influenced the argument in any way. He was reporting established doctrine on that point, not proposing something new.
Tom
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