January 10, 2010 at 3:02 am
I ran across this late last night, linked from, of all places, a fitness site. Several points that I greatly agree with.
hackers have a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. But this isn't really true.
What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking questions. People like that are time sinks — they take without giving back, and they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting and another person more worthy of an answer. We call people like this “losers” (and for historical reasons we sometimes spell it “lusers”).
If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us — in fact, most of us would love nothing more than to deal with you as an equal and welcome you into our culture, if you put in the effort required to make that possible. But it's simply not efficient for us to try to help people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to play stupid.
Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not; you aren't, after all, paying for the service. You will earn an answer, if you earn it, by asking a substantial, interesting, and thought-provoking question — one that implicitly contributes to the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others.
On the other hand, making it clear that you are able and willing to help in the process of developing the solution is a very good start. “Would someone provide a pointer?”, “What is my example missing?”, and “What site should I have checked?” are more likely to get answered than “Please post the exact procedure I should use.” because you're making it clear that you're truly willing to complete the process if someone can just point you in the right direction.
You are likely to be ignored, or written off as a loser, if you:
[items removed]
post a personal e-mail to somebody who is neither an acquaintance of yours nor personally responsible for solving your problem
Don't ask others to debug your broken code without giving a hint what sort of problem they should be searching for. Posting a few hundred lines of code, saying "it doesn't work", will get you ignored. Posting a dozen lines of code, saying "after line 7 I was expecting to see <x>, but <y> occurred instead" is much more likely to get you a response.
Don't flag your question as “Urgent”, even if it is for you
That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: most hackers will simply delete such messages as rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention.
Worth (another) editorial on the subject?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 10, 2010 at 3:04 am
lobbymuncher (1/10/2010)
You have to ask yourself if individuals with this attitude, when skilled up to write decent TSQL, would make decent workmates.
Not one I'd ever want to work with.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 10, 2010 at 3:46 am
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.
Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
January 10, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Paul White (1/10/2010)
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
That is a most excellent idea. Think anybody would actually call up at that rate?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 10, 2010 at 12:38 pm
GilaMonster (1/10/2010)
I ran across this late last night, linked from, of all places, a fitness site. Several points that I greatly agree with.hackers have a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. But this isn't really true.
What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking questions. People like that are time sinks — they take without giving back, and they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting and another person more worthy of an answer. We call people like this “losers” (and for historical reasons we sometimes spell it “lusers”).
If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us — in fact, most of us would love nothing more than to deal with you as an equal and welcome you into our culture, if you put in the effort required to make that possible. But it's simply not efficient for us to try to help people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to play stupid.
Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not; you aren't, after all, paying for the service. You will earn an answer, if you earn it, by asking a substantial, interesting, and thought-provoking question — one that implicitly contributes to the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others.
On the other hand, making it clear that you are able and willing to help in the process of developing the solution is a very good start. “Would someone provide a pointer?”, “What is my example missing?”, and “What site should I have checked?” are more likely to get answered than “Please post the exact procedure I should use.” because you're making it clear that you're truly willing to complete the process if someone can just point you in the right direction.
You are likely to be ignored, or written off as a loser, if you:
[items removed]
post a personal e-mail to somebody who is neither an acquaintance of yours nor personally responsible for solving your problem
Don't ask others to debug your broken code without giving a hint what sort of problem they should be searching for. Posting a few hundred lines of code, saying "it doesn't work", will get you ignored. Posting a dozen lines of code, saying "after line 7 I was expecting to see <x>, but <y> occurred instead" is much more likely to get you a response.
Don't flag your question as “Urgent”, even if it is for you
That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: most hackers will simply delete such messages as rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention.
Worth (another) editorial on the subject?
Yes
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 10, 2010 at 12:39 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (1/10/2010)
Paul White (1/10/2010)
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
That is a most excellent idea. Think anybody would actually call up at that rate?
With Microsoft PSS calls starting at 250$/call for reasonably basic issues (it's been a while since I had the luxury of one of those subscriptions), probably.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
January 10, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Matt Miller (#4) (1/10/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (1/10/2010)
Paul White (1/10/2010)
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
That is a most excellent idea. Think anybody would actually call up at that rate?
With Microsoft PSS calls starting at 250$/call for reasonably basic issues (it's been a while since I had the luxury of one of those subscriptions), probably.
Let's take a look.
1) We have experience people located around the world.
2) The technology exists to route calls to the appropriate people at times they are available (nonwork hours for their paying job)
3) Based on the posts we see here, definite market
Think we could put together a business plan and merket the idea??
January 10, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Lynn Pettis (1/10/2010)
Matt Miller (#4) (1/10/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (1/10/2010)
Paul White (1/10/2010)
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
That is a most excellent idea. Think anybody would actually call up at that rate?
With Microsoft PSS calls starting at 250$/call for reasonably basic issues (it's been a while since I had the luxury of one of those subscriptions), probably.
Let's take a look.
1) We have experience people located around the world.
2) The technology exists to route calls to the appropriate people at times they are available (nonwork hours for their paying job)
3) Based on the posts we see here, definite market
Think we could put together a business plan and merket the idea??
I think so. We would need to implement an additional rate plan : $100/hr.
Each person signing on for this would get a cut, and then SSC would get the remainder.
Problem - what about the volunteer aspect?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 10, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Problem with involving money is that walking away is no longer an option, there is a commitment to provide a solution, because the person is paying for it, and it becomes a job, not a fun diversion (which, at least for me is what SSC is).
I've done front-line help desk (while at university), I've spoken with someone who used to be 1st line support at CSS. I wouldn't get involved in something like this, no matter how much money was involved.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 10, 2010 at 1:13 pm
I probably would too (not get involved, that is). Too much of a visual problem solver which is why I wouldn't make a good telephone support person unless I could go in and see what they see. Had to do that at my previous employer with our GIC offices. PC Anywhere when we supported a Paradox based application, and then SPY when we brought them on-line to our COBOL based application during the Y2K scare.
January 10, 2010 at 1:25 pm
I've done phone support too. Some people are cut out for it. It becomes too much of a grind for my taste. I could do it if i had to - but I don't think I would ever choose to do it again if there were other options.
What Gail said holds a lot of value - SSC is a fun diversion/escape for me.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
January 10, 2010 at 1:45 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (1/10/2010)
What Gail said holds a lot of value - SSC is a fun diversion/escape for me.
Agreed here as well, even with the ID10T's that sometimes visit.
January 10, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Gail,
where was that from? It's interesting, and worth a little writing. I certainly have felt that way sometimes. Someone pinged me this weekend with an "urgent" thread. I replied that if it was urgent, you needed to pay for help.
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com
January 10, 2010 at 11:36 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (1/10/2010)
Paul White (1/10/2010)
Alvin Ramard (1/9/2010)
Hey, that gave me an idea. Maybe we should all add our phone numbers to our signature.Indeed. i was thinking of an 0900 number that charges $9.99 per minute. Happy to answer any and all calls :laugh:
That is a most excellent idea. Think anybody would actually call up at that rate?
My thought is that the number should cost the caller the $10 per minute, but should be a recording of how to properly ask a question on SSC. Money for everyone with no effort. Maybe refer the rude posters to a number that charges them $100 per minute, and provides the same cryptic, unintelligible BS they post while demanding an immediate detailed answer.
January 11, 2010 at 2:10 am
Steve Jones - Editor (1/10/2010)
Gail,where was that from? It's interesting, and worth a little writing. I certainly have felt that way sometimes. Someone pinged me this weekend with an "urgent" thread. I replied that if it was urgent, you needed to pay for help.
There was a link in the first sentence. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Not sure what is was written for, looks like an advice page for asking questions on opensource newgroups or similar. Definitely the opensource, hacker (not cracker) culture.
You want to write up the editorial or should I?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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