March 30, 2010 at 7:19 am
Jack Corbett (3/30/2010)
Good points Gus.I agree with you that an apprentice-type program would be a better way to do it. Shoot, I believe in it because that's how I got into IT. I've had a couple of mentors that have moved along the path to where I am today.
Even with apprenticeship, I think there would need to be some sort of test that shows you are ready for the next level, like the belting system in martial arts.
Unfortunately you'd need to get the business world to buy into the apprenticeship idea and be willing to pay someone to learn on the job and you'd have to have people in the mentor role that can not only do, but teach and all to often the best at what they do aren't the ones who should be teaching. Since most businesses aren't willing (at least in the US) to even pay to train people who already work for them, it would be hard to get them to hire someone just to train.
Yep. The current business and education environment (if you can call what gets done in school "education" these days) in the US is completely based on the idea of memorizing answers to preset lists of questions, often multiple-choice. Thus, ability in that is what's rewarded.
So I don't see a real chance for real improvement in the current culture. But my take on current US culture (and the rest of Western so-called-Civilization) isn't the subject at hand, so I'll leave that for another day.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 30, 2010 at 8:13 am
Lynn Pettis (3/29/2010)
Restricting the panel to just 4 specific individuals, however, could make getting the cert more difficult. As Grant indicated, this one should be attainable internationally without having to travel to a specific location. Trying to coordinate a review board of those four individuals could be problematic.I like the idea of the peer review, but I think this one needs to be looked at in greater detail as to how it could be achieved. I think I'd have to go back through the posts to see what ideas had been floated on that, as I think one of them was to use the User Groups as part of the process. I also believe there was mention of video conferencing as well.
I feel that a peer review should stay in. Video conferencing should be reserved for when it would be an undue hardship for the person seeking the certification to physically meet with the review board.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 30, 2010 at 8:17 am
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/30/2010)
Good points Gus.Since most businesses aren't willing (at least in the US) to even pay to train people who already work for them, it would be hard to get them to hire someone just to train.
Yep. The current business and education environment (if you can call what gets done in school "education" these days) in the US is completely based on the idea of memorizing answers to preset lists of questions, often multiple-choice. Thus, ability in that is what's rewarded.
I am not sure what you'd say of education system in the east then..lot of which atleast in my case came from my friendly British ancestors..:)
March 30, 2010 at 8:25 am
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Something you just mentioned could be used to help this along, SQLSaturday. These venues could also be used to host sessions for certification purposes, as well as serving as venues for recertification as well (presenting/attending).
I do like this idea. To expand upon this slightly, the review boards should also be available at other sql conventions. But we'd have to be careful about this... the people on the boards want to see the other things going on also, so they can't be tied down to doing just review boards.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 30, 2010 at 8:26 am
dma-669038 (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/30/2010)
Good points Gus.Since most businesses aren't willing (at least in the US) to even pay to train people who already work for them, it would be hard to get them to hire someone just to train.
Yep. The current business and education environment (if you can call what gets done in school "education" these days) in the US is completely based on the idea of memorizing answers to preset lists of questions, often multiple-choice. Thus, ability in that is what's rewarded.
I am not sure what you'd say of education system in the east then..lot of which atleast in my case came from my friendly British ancestors..:)
Since I'm not personally familiar with eastern schools (assuming you don't mean "eastern US"), I really can't comment on them.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 30, 2010 at 8:28 am
No, i don't mean eastern US - east of the world..the joke where I went to school was that the more 'anorexic' you were the more 'learnt'..anyways as you said yes it is subject for another discussion.
March 30, 2010 at 8:34 am
Some have mentioned the idea of PASS Chapters conducting "peer reviews". I'm not so sure that this would always work.
I've seen many meetings where most of the attendees had very little knowledge so their ability to properly evaluate the candidate would be questionable. I've also had to deal with at least one member who seemed to rejoice in asking questions, often inappropriate questions, that could not be answered by the presenter. This "bad behavior" could easily influence the unskilled to think the candidate being evaluated doesn't know much.
PASS Chapter peer reviews would only be meaningful if you could ascertain that you had a valid group to start with.
At best, all PASS Chapters could do would be offer an opinion/recommendation as to whether the candidate was knowledgable or not.
That's just my 3 cents worth.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
March 30, 2010 at 8:34 am
How do I unsubscribe from e-mail notifications of comments to THIS thread only?
Since last week, I'm spending the first several minutes of each morning deleting notifications of comments to this unproductive and seemingly endless conversation.
March 30, 2010 at 8:39 am
Alvin Ramard (3/30/2010)
Some have mentioned the idea of PASS Chapters conducting "peer reviews". I'm not so sure that this would always work.I've seen many meetings where most of the attendees had very little knowledge so their ability to properly evaluate the candidate would be questionable. I've also had to deal with at least one member who seem to rejoice in asking questions that could not be answered by the presenter. This "bad behavior" could easily influence the unskilled to think the candidate being evaluated doesn't know much.
PASS Chapter peer reviews would only be meaningful if you could ascertain that you had a valid group to start with.
At best, all PASS Chapters could do would be offer an opinion/recommendation as to whether the candidate was knowledgable or not.
That's just my 3 cents worth.
Yes I agree, the chapter lead may be *consulted* for an opinion and again that opinion may or may not mean anything depending on the individual's contribution to the group. If the person is a regular speaker or has contributed in some substantial way then the chapter lead may be able to say something meaningful. But for chapters to do a peer review is unrealistic simply bcoz we don't have enough qualified people and second as Alvin said there is all kinds of unqualified people who make good volunteers but not necessarily reviewers.
March 30, 2010 at 8:40 am
C.J. (3/30/2010)
How do I unsubscribe from e-mail notifications of comments to THIS thread only?Since last week, I'm spending the first several minutes of each morning deleting notifications of comments to this unproductive and seemingly endless conversation.
Look in the upper right hand corner of this page and you'll see a link for "Edit Subscription".
There's also a link in the notification emails.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
March 30, 2010 at 8:40 am
C.J. (3/30/2010)
How do I unsubscribe from e-mail notifications of comments to THIS thread only?Since last week, I'm spending the first several minutes of each morning deleting notifications of comments to this unproductive and seemingly endless conversation.
Click on My Account, click on the link to manage Forum Settings. Near the bottom of the page is a link to manage subscriptions. You can change from notifications to either unsubscribe completely, or to no notifications.
You can get to the same page by clicking "Edit Subscriptions" above the pages for the thread.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 30, 2010 at 8:41 am
Click the 'Edit Subscriptions' link (top right). There you can select and remove whichever subscriptions you like.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 30, 2010 at 10:23 am
Grant Fritchey (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/29/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/29/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/29/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/29/2010)
I am willing to remove the time in service from the board. I don't think I would remove the MCITP from the board. I think this pre-req is a representation of the stepping stone certification that the MCJ would represent.I don't think I could remove the panel review either. I think that would be an essential piece of the puzzle.
Think of the review as having Brent, Jeff, Gail and Paul doing your review. If they signed off on your abilities for the MCJ, I personally think that would be representative enough for the certification. That however should make little bearing in the interview process - just the same as any other cert or degree. If I were your peer and knew that those people approved of your skills along with your exam, then I could give credence to you being an MCJ - you earned it at that point. I think very few people could game a review process when those types of people are performing the review.
Restricting the panel to just 4 specific individuals, however, could make getting the cert more difficult. As Grant indicated, this one should be attainable internationally without having to travel to a specific location. Trying to coordinate a review board of those four individuals could be problematic.
I like the idea of the peer review, but I think this one needs to be looked at in greater detail as to how it could be achieved. I think I'd have to go back through the posts to see what ideas had been floated on that, as I think one of them was to use the User Groups as part of the process. I also believe there was mention of video conferencing as well.
Four per review panel - but the review panel would have to be much bigger than those 4. They were just for the example.
How do we determine gets to be on the review panels? Are the panels made up of volunteers or are they paid? Tough questions that need to be considered.
The obvious, but inherently wrong, answer would be MCM's of course. But when you check the list of MCM's you'll find that there are only a small handful that are not Microsoft employees, so that's a non-starter. I guess it would be up to the governing body to make that determination. But, since this goes way beyond volunteering for PASS, it would probably have to be a paid position. Heck, I volunteer for the job, right now, because, thinking about, it would almost have to be people that presented and taught at user groups, wrote books & white papers, and then did this full time. In other words, paid MVP's. Sign me up!
I just realized one more complication with the review board. If the MVP were paid by Microsoft to be on this review board, then that person could no longer be an MVP (MS Employees can't be MVP). This would need to be governed by some other entity or a modification to that rule be made. It is also possible that PASS could govern the cert and receive a stipend from MS to cover the cost of employees on the review board.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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March 30, 2010 at 10:36 am
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
I just realized one more complication with the review board. If the MVP were paid by Microsoft to be on this review board, then that person could no longer be an MVP (MS Employees can't be MVP). This would need to be governed by some other entity or a modification to that rule be made. It is also possible that PASS could govern the cert and receive a stipend from MS to cover the cost of employees on the review board.
Nuts, you got me. Still, working for Microsoft in a capacity like this wouldn't be so bad either.
However, you're right. Assuming the governing body for the certification is Microsoft, it means that anyone working on that body would be an MS employee. However, I think, based on people that are MVP's and doing work for Microsoft, that consulting is not included in that list, so this could be a consulting position. Actually, it works better as a consuling position.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 30, 2010 at 10:42 am
Jack Corbett (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/29/2010)
Here is what I think, before presenting anything to the PASS board, we really need to flesh things out more and put it in a more coherent format than a forum thread.
Perhaps some of us on this thread could become a core group and volunteer with PASS to make it more of a reality. I think this is a ways off (but not too long, or we may lose initiative and to be honest some of what has transpired on this thread has made it difficult to continue at times; almost a lesson in futility), but quite doable. By spending time now we will hopefully demonstrate to PASS the willingness to pursue this further and try to make it work. I would also hope that the many PASS users groups would also get behind the idea as well, as I can see them being necessary to its success as well.
I do believe that it is quite possible for the SQL Server community to help build the MCJ into a viable certification between MCITP and MCM.
See, I think just the opposite. PASS priorities are set by the board and implemented by the limited resources at PASS HQ and volunteers. If the community believes, and I'm not sure the majority of the active community does, that there is a need a for another level of certification, then the sooner the idea is put forward to board members the better. Right now, I see the priorities of the board being better communication and transparency, understanding what they have in SQLSaturday, and providing more/better resources for chapters. I don't disagree with those priorities, but to get certification on the list it needs to be brought up early and often, in my opinion.
I think it is doable also, but it will take lots of time and resources, and from experience, neither of those come in abundance in volunteer staffed organizations. You need a project champion who is willing to sell it to the board and run with it. That would mean organizing resources, recruiting and managing volunteers, possibly developing web site/page. I would easily put something like this on the scale of or bigger than what Steve, Andy, and Brian did with SQLSaturday, as far as time, manpower, and effort go.
I think it's a good idea, but who is willing to step up and take it from forum discussion to actual planning and implementation?
I sense a blog post coming from this (don't anyone steal it).
Your spidey senses are strong. Oh wait you meant for you. I started one last night on the subject but it is taking time to properly formulate the ideas.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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