March 30, 2010 at 10:47 am
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
Your spidey senses are strong. Oh wait you meant for you. I started one last night on the subject but it is taking time to properly formulate the ideas.
Wait, you are supposed properly formulate ideas for a blog post? I thought it was just a stream of consciousness thing.
Really the more the merrier and I'll definitely link to any that go up before I write mine.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 30, 2010 at 10:49 am
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
If the MVP were paid by Microsoft to be on this review board, then that person could no longer be an MVP (MS Employees can't be MVP).
Paid by Microsoft doesn't automatically mean MS Employee. Can be an external 'vendor' that's paid for services rendered and not be on the books as a full time employee.
Bear in mind that if MS employs people to do this, the whole thing would likely end up under MS Learning and controlled by them.
It's worth noting that several of the current MCM instructors are MVPs (Paul, Kimberly, Adam, Greg)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 30, 2010 at 10:50 am
I am writing to Kevin Kline tonight to ask for input on the previous attempt that Gail mentioned. Am going to copy Lynn but if anyone else wants to be copied let me know. Perhaps we can take the thread to a limited member thread, not sure if that is possible here or elsewhere.
March 30, 2010 at 10:57 am
dma-669038 (3/30/2010)
I am writing to Kevin Kline tonight to ask for input on the previous attempt that Gail mentioned. Am going to copy Lynn but if anyone else wants to be copied let me know. Perhaps we can take the thread to a limited member thread, not sure if that is possible here or elsewhere.
I'd rather keep it open, but perhaps we should consider a new thread. Probably a good idea once we have formulated the ideas presented so far. I wouldn't want things to get separated at this time.
March 30, 2010 at 11:02 am
How about once a rough draft of the MCJ program has been completed, write an article for SSC? That would open a new thread (and probably another big can of worms).
-- Kit
March 30, 2010 at 11:06 am
Jack Corbett (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Hey, I was thinking possible blog post too, but go ahead.Feel free to blog about it and if you get one out first I'll link to your post.
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
I still stand by getting things a bit more fleshed out before going to the PASS board. Reason being you have to able to answer some tough questions about how the program might work. We haven't gotten that far, all we have right now are some ideas, both good and not so good, that need to be formalized some what and discussed.I can see where you are coming from, but I don't see there being too much being accomplished until there is some kind of formal group working on it. A "free fro all" discussion like this is good to drum up support, but for actual work being accomplished and goals being set, not so good.
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Hopefully I can go back through this thread and do some of that over the next couple of days.I'd love to see someone, and you would be a great choice, condense the main points of this thread into a document that could be submitted to Steve as an article or editorial and be commented on or be be submitted to the PASS board as a stepping stone.
This is probably a good starting point in addition to the blogs.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
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March 30, 2010 at 11:13 am
Grant and Gail make a good point on the "contractor" / "vendor" employment of MVPs. That could work out really well.
I think it might be some of those questions that could crop up when trying to actually create this certification.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 11:14 am
Kit G (3/30/2010)
How about once a rough draft of the MCJ program has been completed, write an article for SSC? That would open a new thread (and probably another big can of worms).
I like this idea.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 11:18 am
GSquared (3/30/2010)
There is no way short of hiring someone and putting them to work, to fully verify that someone knows the skills they are claiming. None that's realistic, anyway.You've seen plenty of people who could claim all kinds of expertise, but who couldn't answer simple basics in an interview. I'm sure you've experienced the people who make it through the whole hiring process, go to work, and promptly prove that they are competent only at getting themselves hired. I know I sure have!
Even the idea of "renting someone to do the tech interview" is really just another type of peer review. And subject to gaming and falsification. How can a manager tell if the person he's asking to do the tech interview even knows how to do that?
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.
--Jeff Moden
March 30, 2010 at 11:38 am
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".
From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
-- Kit
March 30, 2010 at 11:38 am
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.
I think I'd like to watch you conduct an interview... I'm just not sure I'd want to be the person you're interviewing.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 30, 2010 at 11:42 am
Kit G (3/30/2010)
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
I think it's being used in the context of the person is playing a hiring game... the process of getting hired becomes a game where they'll say/do anything, and will learn just enough to sound like they can do the job without having the actual skills to do so. If this person feels that part of the game is to acquire certifications, then they will utilize braindumps, etc. to get the certification without necessarily having the knowledge.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 30, 2010 at 11:51 am
Kit G (3/30/2010)
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
It is in reference to somebody who finds a chink in the process and exploits it to their advantage. In essence they would be cheating the system (don't many gamers do that with video games as well?).
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 11:51 am
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
There is no way short of hiring someone and putting them to work, to fully verify that someone knows the skills they are claiming. None that's realistic, anyway.You've seen plenty of people who could claim all kinds of expertise, but who couldn't answer simple basics in an interview. I'm sure you've experienced the people who make it through the whole hiring process, go to work, and promptly prove that they are competent only at getting themselves hired. I know I sure have!
Even the idea of "renting someone to do the tech interview" is really just another type of peer review. And subject to gaming and falsification. How can a manager tell if the person he's asking to do the tech interview even knows how to do that?
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.
If it isn't a system that can be implemented in a perfectly codifiable manner by any manager who needs it, it doesn't resolve the problem being addressed. I also have to admit that I have doubts about the perfection of your system. I can easily believe it hasn't failed for you yet, but I have never seen any human endeavor produce a perfect system. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I do have my doubts about it.
The most obvious flaw in it is that you can't possibly carry out the kind of intensity on an interview on all subjects about SQL that might ever be required. Your knowledge of T-SQL is quite possibly unsurpassed, but if I remember correctly, you are far from expert on SSIS, SSRS, and a few other areas of MS SQL Server. If you aren't yourself an expert on SSIS, would your interview process actually suss out the difference between competence at SSIS and expertise at SSIS? (If I'm mistaken about your competence in SSIS, fill in that blank with some other area of SQL Server at which you aren't one of the top people in the world.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 30, 2010 at 11:52 am
Kit G (3/30/2010)
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
No - that would allow you to game the interview too easily 😉
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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