March 30, 2010 at 9:43 pm
WayneS (3/30/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
If any are interested, I posted my blog on the topic. A greater bit of depth needs to be done with the topic. I figure this is a starting point as far as the blog is concerned.Jason,
The blog provides an excellent summary of what we've been talking about so far. Having it all in one place is nice.
Thanks!
My pleasure.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.
March 30, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.
Thanks Lynn.
I believe Jack will be putting something out too. I think after his blog, then we can start focusing more attention to each of the discussion points outlined in the Bridging the Gap section. Specifically start trying to work out the sticking points, the questions that are raised from it, and shoot for some details.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
WayneS (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.I think I'd like to watch you conduct an interview... I'm just not sure I'd want to be the person you're interviewing.
I would love to watch this as well. Actually, sitting through a mock interview with Jeff would be an eye opener. It would test my knowledge, or the lack there of. I wouldn't be surprised if I said a lot of "I don't know, but I'd start with BOL, then go to online forums like SSC to see if others have had similar problems or issues."
The questions just aren't that difficult and I'm not some sort of fire breathing monster on an interview. Like the question on 1416.. what's so difficult about that especially when you're asking a PHD in Mathematics?
I ask simple questions that any of you could both answer and elaborate on. Certainly anyone claiming 9-10 years of experience or even a "newbie" that has an MS cert under their belt should be able to answer a good number of the questions I ask. That's why I'm so freakin' ticked about a lot of people that I've interviewed and worked with that have certs. They don't even have a reasonable handle on the bloody basics. I'm not saying that everyone with certs is such a dummy... just the 30 or so that I've had to interview and the handful that I've had to work with in the last 10 years. And, it seems to be getting worse!
When I finally do have a candidate (even with 10 years of experience) that does actually know something about SQL Server (they can actually spell "Clustered Index" for example), they can't even answer stupid simple questions about how to avoid some of the simplest loops/cursors... like how to copy from one table to another and make some mods to the data on the way. God forbid that I actually ask them how to do the necessary 3 way join to handle a bloody many-to-many relationship.
Maybe I've been spoiled by the likes of folks like the denizens of SSC but it sure does seem to me that the SQL Server IQ even on the most basic of things, certified or not, started out low and has been seriously going down hill.
The company that I work for is looking for a System's DBA that can actually do System's DBA stuff and it's going to be a long hard row to hoe to find one that actually knows something simple like why a clustered index and the type of data in the column(s) that make it up might be important.
--Jeff Moden
March 31, 2010 at 12:53 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.Thanks Lynn.
I believe Jack will be putting something out too. I think after his blog, then we can start focusing more attention to each of the discussion points outlined in the Bridging the Gap section. Specifically start trying to work out the sticking points, the questions that are raised from it, and shoot for some details.
BWAA-HAAA!!! Do me a favor, guys.... start the "Bridging the Gap" think out with "You actually have to know something about SQL Server... even if you're certified." 😛
--Jeff Moden
March 31, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.Thanks Lynn.
I believe Jack will be putting something out too. I think after his blog, then we can start focusing more attention to each of the discussion points outlined in the Bridging the Gap section. Specifically start trying to work out the sticking points, the questions that are raised from it, and shoot for some details.
BWAA-HAAA!!! Do me a favor, guys.... start the "Bridging the Gap" think out with "You actually have to know something about SQL Server... even if you're certified." 😛
I'm completely down with that second definition.
----------------------------------------------------The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood... Theodore RooseveltThe Scary DBAAuthor of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd EditionProduct Evangelist for Red Gate Software
March 31, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.Thanks Lynn.
I believe Jack will be putting something out too. I think after his blog, then we can start focusing more attention to each of the discussion points outlined in the Bridging the Gap section. Specifically start trying to work out the sticking points, the questions that are raised from it, and shoot for some details.
BWAA-HAAA!!! Do me a favor, guys.... start the "Bridging the Gap" think out with "You actually have to know something about SQL Server... even if you're certified." 😛
Or Certifiable
March 31, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
Jason, I read your blog post and I'm not sure what else I could add to your well written summary of the discussion we have been having on this thread. I'll do some more reviewing of the threads discussion and see if there is more that I could add. What you have written will serve well as a starting point for further discussions.Thanks Lynn.
I believe Jack will be putting something out too. I think after his blog, then we can start focusing more attention to each of the discussion points outlined in the Bridging the Gap section. Specifically start trying to work out the sticking points, the questions that are raised from it, and shoot for some details.
BWAA-HAAA!!! Do me a favor, guys.... start the "Bridging the Gap" think out with "You actually have to know something about SQL Server... even if you're certified." 😛
Fair enough.
I will possible put that in for the next blog on the topic.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
Maybe I've been spoiled by the likes of folks like the denizens of SSC but it sure does seem to me that the SQL Server IQ even on the most basic of things, certified or not, started out low and has been seriously going down hill.
I can't argue that. I can't even say that might be your opinion. Ok I can, but it is similar to my opinion too.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 1:04 pm
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referal from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referal like that carry no weight?
A personal referal like that would get the person an interview.
But, when it comes to certs, the cert doesn't count because I don't know what the person did to get it nor how much they learned. According to what I've seen, not a whole lot of people actually learn what needs to be done by getting a cert. Admittedly, I've probably had a serious run of bad luck with the absolute moroffs that had letters after their name. The proposed MCJ sounds like it could resolve a lot of that IF it were done correctly but I'd STILL not exclude someone without one nor give any preferential treatment to someone with one any more than I will for a PHD in Mathematics.
--Jeff Moden
March 31, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
Or Certifiable
Humph! :laugh:
<--------
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
March 31, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Well said. And 100 percent in agreement. Want to share one expereince - One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster') - he didn't have certs on him but a few years experience so I asked how he didn't know something more, (same exact words) - he responded rather strongly that 'he knew enough to keep the job'- had to be escorted out since he sounded threatening. 'Yeah if you wanna be a geek okay but i only learn enough to keep the job'....For someone from another culture it was quite a threatening experience and scary..was just wondering if anyone has heard or experienced similar.
March 31, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Paul White NZ (3/31/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
Or CertifiableHumph! :laugh:
Most certainly certifiable.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 1:12 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/31/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
Maybe I've been spoiled by the likes of folks like the denizens of SSC but it sure does seem to me that the SQL Server IQ even on the most basic of things, certified or not, started out low and has been seriously going down hill.I can't argue that. I can't even say that might be your opinion. Ok I can, but it is similar to my opinion too.
The Oracle DBAs i know atleast think that is due to proliferation of 'loose information' on the product. It does not take much intelligence or effort to google an error message and come up with tons of information on how to fix it. Not a bad thing, but again makes eveyrthing quick fix and easy for anyone to do without learning why or how. The amount of information available like that for Oracle is much lesser atleast according to what they say so people have to put in effort to learn it.
March 31, 2010 at 1:15 pm
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
Well said. And 100 percent in agreement. Want to share one expereince - One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster') - he didn't have certs on him but a few years experience so I asked how he didn't know something more, (same exact words) - he responded rather strongly that 'he knew enough to keep the job'- had to be escorted out since he sounded threatening. 'Yeah if you wanna be a geek okay but i only learn enough to keep the job'....For someone from another culture it was quite a threatening experience and scary..was just wondering if anyone has heard or experienced similar.
Yes - I have seen those types. They don't get very far in the interview process.
Funny story I just thought of.
I once interviewed a guy for a position I was filling. The guy was leaving the company for which he got the position over me. He didn't know that. He came with some lofty references and was a real sharp guy. The references came from a manager but a coworker (who I happened to know very well) couldn't say much good about his knowledge base. I gave him an interview and within 15 minutes made my decision. He couldn't answer questions about full recovery, CI, or backups. I found it quite interesting though that this person was selected over me for that position. The difference being that he held a masters degree and I had not yet completed my bachelors. Irony, he did get a job at a different place where I applied. Once again, I had a friend there to tell me all about it. I was quite stunned. He still has a higher degree than me - but he can keep getting those jobs.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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