July 3, 2008 at 11:42 am
I think certificates and degrees have a monetary value, in that they can result in getting hired when all other things are equal, and can even result in higher starting pay, etc.
As far as using them to actually judge technical skill? No, I haven't seen that as a valid metric. I've known skilled people with certs, skilled people without certs, incompetent people with and without certs.
Just depends on what you mean by "value" when you ask if they have any.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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July 3, 2008 at 11:59 am
Agreed, G^2. Like a degree, a cert might indicate knowledge. And it can help get your foot in the door. But it still boils down to needing a practical skills test in addition to an interview. For my current job, the skills test nailed me getting the job as they still were a little apprehensive with me not having a degree.
Here's a question for anyone that was in the panel interview for my current job: what is a pyramid structure? It rather caught me out of the blue because it has nothing to do with SQL Server. And it has nothing to do with architecture, before some smart* replies with that. I know there's one person on SSC who knows it because he works in that specific field.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 3, 2008 at 12:07 pm
"pyramid structure"?
If I had to guess (which you probably had to do in your interview):
a. One of those big old things that the Egyptians built?
b. Like an Org Chart (the proper name would be hierarchial)?
c. Like a B-Tree? (the proper name, I think, would be a directed graph)?
Since you got the job, tell us your answer...
July 3, 2008 at 12:13 pm
I've got an MCTS and MCITPro, but mostly because I worked on some 2005 exam books and needed to be sure the books fit the exams, so I took them.
I didn't have a 2000 cert, but I did have the 6.5 and 7.0 exams, along with an MCSE. I got hired by a company that required the MCDBA, they let me slide because of my MCSE, and then gave up after about a year of prodding me to get the MCDBA. They realized it didn't matter.
Get it if it helps you, career-wise, personal goal, marketing, whatever.
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July 3, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Way back in the days of Novell, didn't their Novell Certified Administrator require that you have at least one year experience before awarding the cert, and your company had to provide the documentation supporting the experience? Maybe Microsoft (and other vendors as well) should consider something similiar.
😎
July 3, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Lynn Pettis (7/3/2008)
Way back in the days of Novell, didn't their Novell Certified Administrator require that you have at least one year experience before awarding the cert, and your company had to provide the documentation supporting the experience? Maybe Microsoft (and other vendors as well) should consider something similiar.😎
I believe the CCISP, or one of those security certs, has a similar requirement, after you pass the test you have to work for a certain amount of time in the field before you get the actual title. And so does CPA: a previous girlfriend of mine has a BA in accounting and was working on her MBA and was going to get her CPA. Apparently they have to have X years certified as a bookkeeper. Her ex-boss was going to sign off on it as her having the experience as she prepared budgets for project bids and supervised the bookkeeping that was required to build those budgets and track their performance. Unfortunately she was felled by fibromyalgia and had to medically retire when she was in her mid 30's.
She's a much more pleasant person now that she's retired. :hehe:
Interesting thing: it seems that if you're certified medically disabled, your student loans are forgiven! Or at least they were in her case.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 3, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I would love to get some certifications but have neither the time nor money (10 month old baby!). My degree is not in IT but I have approximately 15 years experience in developing databases, front end applications and beginner to intermediate DBA work. My company is still on 2000 (I have installed 2005 on my laptop to work/play with) and isn't interested in paying for training.
I see a lot of value in certification for people who have experience so I'd agree with having to have a certain amount of experience before you can sit for a particular exam. I have seen people just do the minimum to get through the exam so that they can move into a different career where they have no experience. This doesn't just apply to IT either. These people can give certifications a bad odour if they don't live up to the expectations of the hiring company.
Cheers.
Nicole Bowman
Nothing is forever.
July 4, 2008 at 6:20 pm
To G^2 - a degree is very different from a certification. Getting a degree, you have to go to college, taking classes, for master and PHD, you need to spend so much time in research, besides in college you are not just taking your major classes, you take all kind of classes in different subject. Sometimes people major in one thing but they still work in IT area. I knew many good programmers that went to college and major in totally different areas - one major in marine biology and one major in music, they were the best programmers I saw. On the other hand, I saw some major in computer science and they were the worst programmers I ever knew.
A cert is just saying you are specialize in one area or even one product. One of my co-worker just went to a Microsoft boot camp for a week and became MCSD. He took the class for a couple days and then took the exam. I don't think anyone can get any degree in a boot camp!!!!!
July 4, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Heh... Ok... I'll summarize my position on Certifications and Degrees...
Everyone my bosses hired had great Certifications and Degrees on their resumes and they were hired for that reason... most of them didn't even last through the trial period because they sucked so bad they had their own source of gravity.
All of the people that I recommended because of their technical interview with me are still at the company and doing great work or have found better higher paying jobs and still doing great work...
--Jeff Moden
July 5, 2008 at 10:58 am
I have different ways I feel about certifications in different circumstances.
When I'm interviewing, I assume that the fact that a person has a certification means that he/she knows that area. Hence, if I ask a question on something covered by the cert they have and they get it wrong, it carries a heavier negative mark than if someone without the cert got it wrong.
For colleagues, I've been pushing them to get certified, because in the process of studying I'm hopeful that they will learn things about SQL that they didn't know before. Since the bank's willing to pay for training and exams (provided you pass), there's no downside except the time required to study.
For myself, I use the cert exams as a 'proof' that I understand at least a little bit about the technology in question. Enough to work with it, not enough to be considered an expert in it.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 5, 2008 at 11:21 am
To clarify:
I do recommend that people get certified, but not because that it will not guarantee a job (it won't). But because in the process of studying for the cert you will most likely discover things (maybe small, maybe large) about SQL Server that you didn't know before and that widening of your knowledge may (if used and applied) will make you better at your job with all the attendant present and future effects of that..
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 5, 2008 at 2:16 pm
GilaMonster (7/5/2008)
When I'm interviewing, I assume that the fact that a person has a certification means that he/she knows that area.
That's where you and I may differ... I don't ask questions that appear on the certification... those would just tell me that someone really did pass the test. People who have never even seen SQL Server can pass the test just by memorizing stuff. When I'm hiring a Sr. DBA or a Sr. Developer, I want to know what they can do in SQL and how they figure out problems that they're not already familiar with. Because of all the people that have certifications that have done so terribly on interviews and actual job performance, I don't care if the certification paper was signed by Bill Gates himself... certifications mean nothing to me. Same thing goes for degrees... I'd much rather have an almost high-school dropout that really knows how to program in SQL than some dill-weed with a Master CS that doesn't know how to get the current date and time or a Phd Mathematics that can't figure out what 1416 is...
Microsoft needs to find a way to make the certification actually mean something other than being able to pass a multiple-guess test.
--Jeff Moden
July 5, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Dunno... think it requires some level of expertise to pass the exam. I'm sure there are people out there who cheat.
I think you have to look at everything as a whole... not just take 'certification' as a whole.
Same thing holds true with degrees... when I was in college, there were guys who cheated on thier exams to get through. Those are the guys who get left by the side of the road.
I think those of us who work on our craft, and are always learning will shine at the interviews, certified or not.
I've been on both sides of the fence... when it comes down to certification, I don't assume they know everything, or even enough. I'll find that out in the first 10 mins of talking with the candidate if the person knows their stuff or not.
When it comes to certification, some guys know their stuff, but don't test well, other guys are 'book smart' but don't know how to practically apply it.
Mark
July 5, 2008 at 2:41 pm
... and THAT's precisely what I'm getting at... neither the cert nor the degree really matter because some cheat at both and the good guys will shine no matter what, cert or not.
--Jeff Moden
July 6, 2008 at 4:16 am
Jeff Moden (7/5/2008)
That's where you and I may differ... I don't ask questions that appear on the certification...
Nor do I.
What I mean is that is someone says they have the Database Admin cert then they should know the backup types of SQL, and the differences between them. (It's among the things covered by that course and exam). If then I ask a question on say differential backups and they get it wrong or can't answer then it counts against them more than if the guy without any cert gets it wrong.
It's the same as someone saying on a resume that they are an expert in X, then not been able to answer any questions on X. It brings their credibility into question.
Because of all the people that have certifications that have done so terribly on interviews and actual job performance,
Note to self: Never interview with Jeff.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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