To Certify or Not To Certify

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To Certify or Not To Certify

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Vivien Xing SSChampion Points: 12297 More actions · Answer 1

Vivien Xing

SSChampion

Points: 12297

July 6, 2008 at 7:09 am

#838588

I think MVP is more valuable than the certificate. Not saying that certificate is not good. It is a helpful learning path.

Congratulations Gail! I just read Steve's article today. I am happy for you.

Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004494 More actions · Answer 2

Vivien Xing (7/6/2008)

I think MVP is more valuable than the certificate.

And significantly harder to get. Plus it's about different things. MVP is about community involvement more than anything

Congratulations Gail! I just read Steve's article today. I am happy for you.

Thanks

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

colin.Leversuch-Roberts SSC Guru Points: 52643 More actions · Answer 3

I have to agree with Jeff - there needs to be a better way of becoming certified without cramming with transender. I did one exam which I failed, back in 6.0 days - couldn't believe how many questions on cursors ( why ? ) and permission chains on user owned objects ( again why would you allow users to create their own objects and grant permissions to others ? ) - that said I've had bad experiences with mcse and mcdba certified DBA's - ok maybe I've just been unlucky - sorry but I don't see the certifications being worth the paper they are printed on - that'll put me in the bad books with microsoft!!

[font="Comic Sans MS"]The GrumpyOldDBA[/font]
www.grumpyolddba.co.uk
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/grumpyolddba/

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 728159 More actions · Answer 4

I think the simulation path is the way to move. I know lots of people were tripped up on the 70-431 sims of SSMS.

However, I know there was at least one question I wasn't sure about. So I clicked around to see what was available, and that led me to the answer. granted it required me to know the concept and have an idea of what needed to be done, but I wasn't sure and the limits of the simulation helped.

I think they should give you a VM of SQL Server, give you 20 things to do, and then evaluate the state of the VM to determine if you achieved things.

Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1000539 More actions · Answer 5

Note to self: Never interview with Jeff.

There is no doubt in my mind... you would pass with flying colors because you never lie. 🙂

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
"Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
Intro to Tally Tables and Functions

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1000539 More actions · Answer 6

colin Leversuch-Roberts (7/6/2008)

I have to agree with Jeff - there needs to be a better way of becoming certified without cramming with transender. I did one exam which I failed, back in 6.0 days - couldn't believe how many questions on cursors ( why ? ) and permission chains on user owned objects ( again why would you allow users to create their own objects and grant permissions to others ? ) - that said I've had bad experiences with mcse and mcdba certified DBA's - ok maybe I've just been unlucky - sorry but I don't see the certifications being worth the paper they are printed on - that'll put me in the bad books with microsoft!!

I wonder how many questions they have on cursors now adays... If it's more than 5, I would flunk because I avoid them like the plague.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
"Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
Intro to Tally Tables and Functions

Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004494 More actions · Answer 7

Jeff Moden (7/6/2008)

I wonder how many questions they have on cursors now adays... If it's more than 5, I would flunk because I avoid them like the plague.

I don't actually recall seeing any cursor questions in any of the 2005 exams I've written.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004494 More actions · Answer 8

Steve Jones - Editor (7/6/2008)

I think the simulation path is the way to move. I know lots of people were tripped up on the 70-431 sims of SSMS.

Yup. Several of my colleagues included.

The case studies of the other exams also make it a bit more difficult to use brain dumps. It's very difficult for someone to memorise several pages worth of case study and since the questions are based on the info given in the case study, it's not that useful to memorise just them. Especially if the details in the case study change slightly from time to time, which I suspect they do, though have no proof.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1000539 More actions · Answer 9

GilaMonster (7/7/2008)

Jeff Moden (7/6/2008)

I wonder how many questions they have on cursors now adays... If it's more than 5, I would flunk because I avoid them like the plague.

I don't recall seeing any cursor questions in any of the 2005 exams I've written.

I just took a look at the "Developer" requirements from MS... there seems so be a fair number of areas on cursors and optimizing cursors. Does that, ummm, "stuff" show up on the exams you've taken?

I guess that's part of the problem I have with some of these things like the Microsoft exams... I'll never use a cursor in production... why should anyone be tested on something like cursors when they should really be teaching folks how to get around them? Do they have anything practical like how to use a Tally or Number table? Probably not.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
"Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
Intro to Tally Tables and Functions

Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004494 More actions · Answer 10

Jeff Moden (7/7/2008)

I just took a look at the "Developer" requirements from MS... there seems so be a fair number of areas on cursors and optimizing cursors. Does that, ummm, "stuff" show up on the exams you've taken?

Don't recall any. I've done both the dev and both of the admin exams. Doesn't mean they're not there, means I didn't get questions on them or don't remember questions on them

I guess that's part of the problem I have with some of these things like the Microsoft exams... I'll never use a cursor in production...

I do often. Not for data manipulation, but for admin tasks. Like rebuilding all NC indexes on all tables where the logical fragmentation is more than X, or running an alter database on user databases that meet a certain criteria. Personally I think that's the only place cursors should be used.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1000539 More actions · Answer 11

Yep... I agree with that... I still avoid them on some processes in 2k5 simply by using concatenation to build "monster" commands and execute those instead of a cursor. No big advantage except they're pretty easy to write.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
"Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)
Intro to Tally Tables and Functions

Wayne West SSC-Insane Points: 22586 More actions · Answer 12

Steve Jones - Editor (7/6/2008)

...I think they should give you a VM of SQL Server, give you 20 things to do, and then evaluate the state of the VM to determine if you achieved things.

The second part of my interview for my current job was exactly that, though I think it was ten things. It was a pretty easy list, and I tried to do each question differently than the first. One was create a database, so I did that in Enterprise Manager. Then create a table, did that in Query Analyzer. Etc.

There was one question, I don't remember what it was, that I didn't quite get, I think they were mistaken in their framing of it. IIRC, they were asking where the error log was in SQL Server, so I pulled up the SQL Server logs. He said that wasn't it. I think they thought the SQL Agent log was the error log.

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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]

Seggerman-675349 Hall of Fame Points: 3563 More actions · Answer 13

Loner - yes, I went through SetFocus and did quite well after

their "job" postings were deceptive but the school itself was worth it, at least to me

I had tried for the past 10 years to get out of mainframe programming

I admit it, I was and to some extent still am a certified professional who doesn't know her arse from her elbow - I had 20 plus years of irrelevant programming - in COBOL on IMS databases

that was why it took me a month where my focus was mostly on getting certified and even then I squeaked through the tests

a co-worker from my first job who had a much higher skill level studied at night, even working full-time with a toddler at home and she sailed through her tests

I may know what the difference between a SingleCall and Singleton is, at least enough to answer a multiple-choce question, but do I have the judgement and experience to know the ramifications of using one over the other? No way - not since I've only been programming on the PC for barely 3 years.

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 728159 More actions · Answer 14

I doubt the questions change much. There's too much effort into developing the exams and then doing a Beta to allow for change.

I thought that they built exams to cover about 3x what they test you on and then you get a random third of the questions/case studies.

Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com

kevin.kunz SSChasing Mays Points: 635 More actions · Answer 15

Having been on both sides of this coin: Certified (Oracle) and non certified (SQL Server), as well as being a candidate and the person doing the employment.

I stopped hiring certified people midway through the Dot Com era as I found that the individuals lacked practical experience. I cannot teach logic, but I can teach syntax ...unfortunately most certification exams only look for book knowledge and have no ability to measure the common sense of the individual.

I have since stepped back somewhat from the personal issue with certifications, but during interviews with candidates who posses a plethora of alphabet diplomas I take great pains to ask them questions that require practical application solutions which conflict with some of the book learning answers required by the exams.