March 31, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referal from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referal like that carry no weight?
A personal referal like that would get the person an interview.
But, when it comes to certs, the cert doesn't count because I don't know what the person did to get it nor how much they learned. According to what I've seen, not a whole lot of people actually learn what needs to be done by getting a cert. Admittedly, I've probably had a serious run of bad luck with the absolute moroffs that had letters after their name. The proposed MCJ sounds like it could resolve a lot of that IF it were done correctly but I'd STILL not exclude someone without one nor give any preferential treatment to someone with one any more than I will for a PHD in Mathematics.
Which is exactly why I think a "peer review with teeth" system is what's needed, not yet another test/exam.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 31, 2010 at 2:27 pm
WayneS (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster')Makes me wonder what he thinks the difference is between a table scan and a clustered index scan...
Table scan is done at a buffet on top of an eating surface.
CI Scan is done on the floor with punch cards.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 2:29 pm
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
Well said. And 100 percent in agreement. Want to share one expereince - One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster') - he didn't have certs on him but a few years experience so I asked how he didn't know something more, (same exact words) - he responded rather strongly that 'he knew enough to keep the job'- had to be escorted out since he sounded threatening. 'Yeah if you wanna be a geek okay but i only learn enough to keep the job'....For someone from another culture it was quite a threatening experience and scary..was just wondering if anyone has heard or experienced similar.
Often, and not just in IT areas. "How dare you challenge my competence? I've been doing this job for 30 years!" is a pretty standard statement in just about any business I've seen. My response is inevitably, "You've been doing it wrong for 30 years and you haven't figured that out yet? What's wrong with you?" Though I have to admit, that response has been under my breath a few times.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 31, 2010 at 2:45 pm
GSquared (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
Well said. And 100 percent in agreement. Want to share one expereince - One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster') - he didn't have certs on him but a few years experience so I asked how he didn't know something more, (same exact words) - he responded rather strongly that 'he knew enough to keep the job'- had to be escorted out since he sounded threatening. 'Yeah if you wanna be a geek okay but i only learn enough to keep the job'....For someone from another culture it was quite a threatening experience and scary..was just wondering if anyone has heard or experienced similar.Often, and not just in IT areas. "How dare you challenge my competence? I've been doing this job for 30 years!" is a pretty standard statement in just about any business I've seen. My response is inevitably, "You've been doing it wrong for 30 years and you haven't figured that out yet? What's wrong with you?" Though I have to admit, that response has been under my breath a few times.
A great response for that is "Well thank you for your time." Then stand up to walk out.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 2:50 pm
WayneS (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster')Makes me wonder what he thinks the difference is between a table scan and a clustered index scan...
That's an evil question to ask.... So many ways to get it wrong.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2010 at 2:59 pm
GilaMonster (3/31/2010)
WayneS (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster')Makes me wonder what he thinks the difference is between a table scan and a clustered index scan...
That's an evil question to ask.... So many ways to get it wrong.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that they were the same, except you'd get a table scan on a heap and a clustered index scan where a clustered index existed. If so, how would you get it wrong? Is it that I'm not thinking like a gamer?
March 31, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
GilaMonster (3/31/2010)
WayneS (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster')Makes me wonder what he thinks the difference is between a table scan and a clustered index scan...
That's an evil question to ask.... So many ways to get it wrong.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that they were the same, except you'd get a table scan on a heap and a clustered index scan where a clustered index existed.
Exactly.
Problem is, too many people think table scan = slow and clustered index scan, because it says index, is something much better and preferable, and don't realise they are essentially the same thing.
One I've heard before -
Q: "Which is better, a table scan or a clustered index scan?"
A: "The clustered index scan"
Q: "Why?"
A: "Because it's using the index and the table scan isn't."
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2010 at 3:23 pm
GilaMonster (3/31/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
GilaMonster (3/31/2010)
WayneS (3/31/2010)
dma-669038 (3/31/2010)
One guy i talked to did not know the difference between table scan and index seek except that 'it ran faster')Makes me wonder what he thinks the difference is between a table scan and a clustered index scan...
That's an evil question to ask.... So many ways to get it wrong.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that they were the same, except you'd get a table scan on a heap and a clustered index scan where a clustered index existed.
Exactly.
Problem is, too many people think table scan = slow and clustered index scan, because it says index, is something much better and preferable, and don't realise they are essentially the same thing.
One I've heard before -
Q: "Which is better, a table scan or a clustered index scan?"
A: "The clustered index scan"
Q: "Why?"
A: "Because it's using the index and the table scan isn't."
So it has nothing to do with checking out the vast display of food?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Why do I feel this discussion has gotten way off track?
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com
March 31, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (3/31/2010)
Why do I feel this discussion has gotten way off track?
It was lunch time.
We will get back on track. Need time to digest the information and stew on what has been presented.
What are your opinions on what we have hashed out?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 31, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
All I want is please leave the doors open to all [font="Arial Black"]with the ability[/font].Exactly... 🙂
Thanks Jeff I am off this thread to think how a people who did not pass the original Transact-SQL exam is qualified to create an exam that I may not qualify run by Microsoft.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 31, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Gift Peddie (3/31/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
All I want is please leave the doors open to all [font="Arial Black"]with the ability[/font].Exactly... 🙂
Thanks Jeff I am off this thread to think how a people who did not pass the original Transact-SQL exam is qualified to create an exam that I may not qualify run by Microsoft.
This takes us back to what Jeff has said about certs like the MCTS and MCITP not being reflective of one abilities or lack there of.
I am INSULTED that you would dare judge my knowledge and abilities by the simple lack of the MCITP cert.
Whicj takes us back to the point of this editorial and discussion. There is a need for a cert like the MCJ that would provide validation of ones knowledge and abilities.
March 31, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (3/31/2010)
Why do I feel this discussion has gotten way off track?
Heh... it's still on track... but now it has a "third rail". 😀
--Jeff Moden
March 31, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/31/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
All I want is please leave the doors open to all [font="Arial Black"]with the ability[/font].Exactly... 🙂
Thanks Jeff I am off this thread to think how a people who did not pass the original Transact-SQL exam is qualified to create an exam that I may not qualify run by Microsoft.
This takes us back to what Jeff has said about certs like the MCTS and MCITP not being reflective of one abilities or lack there of.
I am INSULTED that you would dare judge my knowledge and abilities by the simple lack of the MCITP cert.
Whicj takes us back to the point of this editorial and discussion. There is a need for a cert like the MCJ that would provide validation of ones knowledge and abilities.
Heh... careful ol' friend. I try not to admit to being insulted by anyone because... that may have been their goal to begin with and I don't like to help people reach that goal. 🙂
Bring back the "saint". 😉
--Jeff Moden
March 31, 2010 at 5:21 pm
Jeff Moden (3/31/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/31/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/31/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
All I want is please leave the doors open to all [font="Arial Black"]with the ability[/font].Exactly... 🙂
Thanks Jeff I am off this thread to think how a people who did not pass the original Transact-SQL exam is qualified to create an exam that I may not qualify run by Microsoft.
This takes us back to what Jeff has said about certs like the MCTS and MCITP not being reflective of one abilities or lack there of.
I am INSULTED that you would dare judge my knowledge and abilities by the simple lack of the MCITP cert.
Whicj takes us back to the point of this editorial and discussion. There is a need for a cert like the MCJ that would provide validation of ones knowledge and abilities.
Heh... careful ol' friend. I try not to admit to being insulted by anyone because... that may have been their goal to begin with and I don't like to help people reach that goal. 🙂
Bring back the "saint". 😉
Sometimes even a saint needs to pull out the rod and knock a few heads.
I tried dealing with this individual long enough and this last comment simply crossed a line with me and required a response. I know it won't mean a thing to her, but I will stand by my post.
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